Talk:Autism is to blame
Should have a clearer title/name I'm new to this wiki, but wanted to suggest that "Autism is to blame" be renamed to something that more clearly coveys the stance the article takes. ("Blaming autism"?) The current title implies that the article does blame autistic neurology for the behavior, effectively reinforcing the inaccurate stereotype (most people won't click through to learn otherwise) and giving the false impression that the geek feminist wiki folk are hostile towards those of us on the spectrum. Xyzzy (talk) 05:03, August 13, 2012 (UTC) : I see the problem, but we tend to name all our pages for the fallacies, eg Geeks are oppressed and Men are just like that and You should be flattered. Do you think this is a particular problem with this title, or with all of them? Thayvian (talk) 08:02, August 13, 2012 (UTC) : I don't have a huge objection to the name of this page. But it is more problemmatic than the other examples Thayvian cited. A title referring to "Geeks" (whether positive or negative) is unlikely to be taken badly when the vast majority of contributors and readers are known to identify as Geeks. A title which when taken out of context seems to hit all men probably won't be taken too badly given the fact that everyone who reads this site seriously agrees that there are significant gender inequalities. The title "You should be flattered" doesn't directly hit any group when read without context. So I wouldn't interpret a statement like "Men are to blame" as any sort of attack, but when I saw this page in my referrer logs I was worried for a minute (anyone can edit a wiki).Russell Coker (talk) 08:28, August 27, 2012 (UTC) Disability vs Difference Within the NeuroDiversity community there is disagreement about whether an ASD is a disability or a difference, but there seems to be some agreement that Low Functioning Autism is a disability and that High Functioning Autism usually isn't. Professor Simon Baron-Cohen wrote a paper on this topic which seems to generally agree with this. Given that people on the Autism Spectrum who attend conferences tend to meet the "High Functioning" criteria the term "disability" isn't a good fit.Russell Coker (talk) 12:31, August 27, 2012 (UTC) : Never mind my previous comment, I'm not too happy with it. I think Simon Baron-Cohen is someone who has been criticized a lot by people with autism for speaking for them, so I don't think he's the best person to cite? I also find it pretty ableist to suggest that having a disability is a bad thing. This sounds kind of like the "oh, it would be so mean to people we like to suggest they are disabled, because it would suggest that they're like those awful disabled people who we would never want to associate with" line of reasoning. Monadic (talk) 19:45, August 27, 2012 (UTC) : The most common criticism of Simon Baron-Cohen is regarding his "Extreme Male Brain" theory, I'm sure that most people here would agree with such criticism. But I don't think that is relevant to this discussion, the paper I cited makes good points which coincide well with blog posts and discussions on AspiesForFreedom.com, but Simon has described them in a much better manner. Also the Social Model of Disability is worth reading. I'm not going to argue with anyone on the Spectrum who identifies as disabled. But I don't feel that I am disabled.Russell Coker (talk) 03:50, August 28, 2012 (UTC) It depends Sometimes ASDs will lead to sexual harrasment by accident or out of unnecessary desperation, and sometimes they won't. It depends what age they're diagnosed at, how much access there's been to treatment, whether the patient was still living with parents when first trying to date (I wasn't), whether a therapist knew to ask about the subject after that point, and whether anyone's given constructive feedback instead of just saying "stop being a creep". I wrote more on this here . Seahen (talk) 11:38, March 23, 2014 (UTC) I just read that post on thewfrisky.com, Seahen's comment doesn't seem to have passed moderation. The other comments are mostly bad and the only reference to Aspies in the comments on that blog post is from a guy who is really creepy. Is the above paragraph even of sufficient quality for the talk page? Russell Coker (talk) 04:56, March 24, 2014 (UTC) What is your opinion of Scott Aaronson? 02:35, February 8, 2015 (UTC)Collin237 I presume you mean this post by Scott Aaronson He admits having psychological problems, his articles (and the commentary they inspired) are such a mess that it's difficult to say more about his points. Regarding the issue of Autism, he doesn't say that he's on the Autism Spectrum so it's probably best not to go further into that side of things unless/until he goes public.Russell Coker (talk) 12:12, February 8, 2015 (UTC) Here's a thought. I'm a regular reader of /r/ShitRedditSays and I even post there, sometimes. As an autistic person, I understand the suffering and pain caused by segregation, ostracising, depowerment, and belittling. I'm always one of the first to jump to the defence of a trans person when they're being attacked on Reddit, and I find it disgusting and irritating. Often, neurotypicals do have socail capacities, but those capacities are -- in my experience -- tied to social xenophobia and bigotry. A love of the familiar, to wit. In my experiences, on forums such as Wrong Planet, I don't see any prejudices or bigotry. Just feeling and empathy for those who suffer. Studies in recent years have shown that autistic people have such an always on brain with a hyperactive sense of empathy that sometimes they just have to shut it down or the pain would drive them insane. This is true from my experiences, too. The pain sometimes is so immense that I have to be cold, otherwise I'd end up depressed in a really bad way. Anyway, the xenophobia of neurotypicals may actually be linked to higher levels of oxytocin. What oxytocin does is it forces the person to be lovey-dovey with those who're similar to them, but it also has the inverse affect that if one isn't of similar qualities, one is more likely to be ostracised. This is an interesting bias. It's one that autistic brains (generally lower in oxytocin) don't really possess. Instead, ethics are arrived at through, perhaps, a more logical basism that's founded in emotion rather than social considerations. It is, for exmaple, illogical to cause or permit suffering. It will only lead to trauma and a person who's lessened for it. Here's an example: I'm astounded that so many people who're claiming to be supportive of feminism are tolerant of Overwatch. There's so much skeevy stuff going on there. Consider that the supposedly buff woman has armour patterns that suggest an hourglass figure, and bulky pants which would allow the viewer to perceive any kind of legs beneath. Blizzard are sneaky about it. Then there's Ana with the ageism she represents. She looks only in her late thirties or early forties, despite supposedly being in her late sixties. She appears to have had massive amounts of cosmetic surgery done, putting her in 'MILF' territory for the kinds of socially awkward extraverted nerds who'd enjoy that. Furthermore, they added 'young' skins which completely erases her age entirely. Sure, I could go for the obvious targets like Widowmaker, or I could bring up WTF things like Pharah's mecha thong (no, really,, she has a mecha thong). I don't need to to point out how amazingly sexist Overwatch is, and I don't support it for those reasons. I hate how sneaky Blizzard are with their sexism. I could even bring up how they seemed to plant a false post to try to look good by removing a 'sexist' Tracer pose when actually they were just replacing her existing -- possibly less objectified- - pose with a pin-up. No, seriously, it's a pin-up. http://preview.tinyurl.com/tracerpinup That's just an image link, as the preview shows. Check it out if you want to. Anyway, the point is is that I -- a neurodiverse person -- have been openly vilified by both genders for bringing this up on neurotypical gaming sites. I've figuratively been burned at the stake, at least symbolically. And fascinatingly, I was frequently called autistic for it. So which is it, neurotypicals? Are autistic people sexist or SJWs? Anyway, it's funny. Well, in that sense where you'd want to go and curl up foetal somewhere and laugh about it, or you'd go nuts. I've actually lost count of how many times I've been banned for bringing it up. It makes the neurotypical site owners uncomfortable. Contrary to that terrible, emotionally harrowing experience, I found that in autistic circles I was supported and people agreed with me that Blizzard's actions were skeevy and questionable at best, even unethical at best. There was a consensus that Blizzard's attitude regarding their women characters in Overwatch were demeaning and belittling, meant for what Anita Sarkeesian would call the male gaze. Even more terrible is that neurotypical gamers have started referring to Sarkeesian as 'autistich.' Which they unfortunately believe to be a clever portmanteau of 'autistic' and 'bitch.' Sigh. Anyway, contrary to popular belief? Autistic people have got your back in ths. There may be outliers, but my experiences have told me that the majority will pretty much stand p for you no matter what. It's a suffering thing. We've suffered. You've suffered. Suffering sucks. So, speaking logically, we're better by looking out for one another, eh? Prejudices and bigotry are terrible things. They should only ever be a mainstay in the xenophobic minds responsible for spawning them. 05:12, August 12, 2016 (UTC) This is very long. Maybe write a blog post and put a link here. Russell Coker (talk) 06:22, August 12, 2016 (UTC) Heh. That is something autistic people are responsible for. Judging what neurotypicals think is 'too much,' or 'essay length.' Being succinct is a common issue amongst people like myself. I've frequently run up against this. How does one know which topics to cover or not? To what depth? What level of depth is uncomfortable for neurotypicals? Why is deptth uncomfortable for neurotypicals? Even now, as I'm asking these questions, I could continue to write for quite some time to elaborate upon my thought processes. I've found that many neurotyipcals like it 'short and sweet,' but to me that tends to be shallow and without information beyond platitudes. Another aspect of autism is pathological truth-telling, versus the more politcal 'careful talk' of neurotyipcals. So, I apologise for writing as I do, but that's autism for you. This is the kind of thing that autism is responsible for. Thoughtful and introspective walls of text. Not sexism. Anyway, feel free to delete this! I just wanted to share a viewpoint from a high-functioning autistic (registered as autistic with an IQ of 132). I don't really blog much. 09:55, August 13, 2016 (UTC)